The Jewish “homeland”?

The Jewish population of Palestine was less than 5% when the “home for Jews” was accepted in the Balfour Declaration. But your “argument” is irrelevant in any event, since no-one – and certainly not me – disputes that Jews have as much right as members of any other religious group to live in Palestine. We are not discussing the Jews’ right to live anywhere they please; we are discussing the establishment of a Zionist apartheid state in Palestine. We are discussing an illegal occupation of an entire country and the persecution of its indigenous natives. We are discussing ethnic cleansing, discrimination, torture, land-grabbing and the wholesale slaughter of Gazan and Lebanese civilians by American-backed Zionist military forces.

But I can see that – like most of your ilk – you are unable to argue your miserable case without resorting to personal insults.

Israel seeks only to remove those who endanger its population with the constant barrage of rocket attack – the point is not to play some inane tit-for-tat game under your false standards of proportion . . .

“If I’m a moron why are you wasting your time arguing with me?”

Good question, chalk it up to foolishness

“No, there has been a Jewish presence in Palestine for thousands of years. The state of Israel has only existed since 1948. And in 1948 Jews comprised approximately 2% of the population. What’s your point?”

Now you show your complete and total ignorance. the area was NOT originally known as Palestine. The land of Canaan was inhabited by Semitic, non-arabian, tribes – amongst them the Philistines. They were long since lost to the sands of time, when the land of Israel, at the time known as Judea, was conquered by the Romans. To shame the Jewish rebels, the Romans renamed Israel “Palistine”- the Latin name for the Philistine nation . . .

“That because some Jews fled Palestine 3,000 years ago their descendants have a right to go back there, take the land by force from its legal and rightful owners and kill them if they resist? ”

3,000 years ago? What rubbish! The destruction of the temple by the Romans was 2000 year s ago, Jews were forcibly removed, as well as those who fled, and again THERE HAS BEEN A CONTINUOUS JEWISH PRESENCE in the JEWISH Homeland from time immemorial.
What right does a Palstinian Arab have over a Jersulamite that has been in the land just as long – if not longer? This insanity is a direct result of Arab violence, the teaching of hate and ignorance, and the poverty and forced refugee status by the PLO on it’s own subjects while the millions upon millions that are poured in as aid money are pocketed by the corrupt etc. etc.

The occupation of your mind is wrong and Illegal period.
Get help buddy – perhaps one of your clairvoyant friends may help you . . .

Wherever I make quotes, I give my source references.
If you find anything on my blog which you believe to be false or inaccurate, please let me know and I will either provide my source or correct or delete the statement.
You may not agree with my views – obviously you do not – but please at least accept that I am expressing my honest viewpoint and reporting events as accurately as I can. I am not here to give incorrect information, whatever you might think. The attacks on Gaza are wrong, unjustified and morally reprehensible. When you make excuses for them you are trying to defend the indefensible.

@Mottel
“How does one define disproportionate? There are no concrete standards.”

Yes therre are. They are enshrined in the Geneva conventions, and they are violated every day by Israel.

“If Israel backs off to avoid criticism from morons like you…”

If I’m a moron why are you wasting your time arguing with me?

“There has been an unabated Jewish presence in Israel for the past three thousand years”

No, there has been a Jewish presence in Palestine for thousands of years. The state of Israel has only existed since 1948. And in 1948 Jews comprised approximately 2% of the population. What’s your point?

“- it wasn’t until 636 CE that the land was captured by Muslims.”

Again, what’s your point?

I know all this. I’ve studied the history of the Middle East. I’ve been writing about it for 25 years. Your “argument” is completely devoid of logic and cohesion. What exactly are you trying to say? That because some Jews fled Palestine 3,000 years ago their descendants have a right to go back there, take the land by force from its legal and rightful owners and kill them if they resist? Do you have any idea how completely insane that argument is?
The occupation of Palestine is wrong. And it’s illegal. Period.

“I should put more credence in the “information” I read in badly-written, unsourced, misinformed diatribes like the one you posted a link to above, should I?”

After reading your posts I stand by my comments on your opinions, oh I mean diatribes.

They are anti-Israel, anti-American, racist and yes, anti-Semitic.

I thought they were pretty clear to begin with.

“Zak, just be honest and really say what you believe – “to see Israel destroyed”
is shorthand for ‘kill all the Jews’”.

You seem to be very eager to dismiss me as a Jew hater. I’m sorry to disappoint you, but you are barking up the wrong tree. I don’t write in “shorthand” or subtext: I say what I think. I don’t want anyone to get killed, Jew or Palestinian. My opposition to Israel is political, not religious or racial. I believe that a grave injustice was perpetrated on the Palestinian people when the state of Israel was established in their country against their will. They had no hand in the persecution of the Jews, yet they have been paying the price for the Holocaust for over sixty years.

What Israel is doing – and has been doing since 1948 (and earlier) is wrong, unfair, unjust and unacceptable. If I were a Palestinian I’m sure I would find it very difficult not to hate all Jews. That’s not shorthand for anything. It doesn’t mean that I hate all Jews. It is simply an arecognition of the fact that the people of Palestine have been persecutes and oppressed beyond the limits of human endurance.

“At last, your enlightenment and your supposed psychic abilities that you foist upon the world can be unmasked for the Neanderthal that you really are.”

The Neanderthals were nice people, by all accounts. Hitler didn’t like them because the shape of their head was “wrong” and they weren’t tall, German, Aryan and blond (which is odd really, since he wasn’t either).

“The fact that you believe what you read in the Guardian is proof enough.”

Right. And I should put more credence in the “information” I read in badly-written, unsourced, misinformed diatribes like the one you posted a link to above, should I?

Your comments are getting much clearer as to what you really think.

“I think you’ll find that they want the dismantlement of Israel, and quite right, too. Most people in the world (with the exception of Americans, who have been inculcated by successive pro-Israe governments, a pro-Israel media and pro-Israel Hollywood into holding a rost but entirely false notion of Israel) would like to see Israel put out of business. But if some Palestinians would like to see Israel destroyed, who can blame them?”

Zak, just be honest and really say what you believe – “to see Israel destroyed”
is shorthand for “kill all the Jews”.

At last, your enlightenment and your supposed psychic abilities that you foist upon the world can be unmasked for the Neanderthal that you really are.

The fact that you believe what you read in the Guardian is proof enough.

I am not aware of any Hamas terrorists. I know that Hamas, the democratically-elected representatives of the Palestinian people, are engaged in a struggle of military resistance against the illegal occupation of their country by a terrorist, apartheid state, as is their right and, indeed, responsibility. Every country has the right to defend itself against illegal occupation and oppression.

“Since the early 1500’s the Irish Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other and in the 2oth century practicing outright terrorism by planting bombs all over London.”

You are misinformed. Irish nationalists have been fighting British loyalists (occupiers) for many years, but religion doesn’t come into it. Indeed, the founders of the Irish Republican movement were protestant.

“Have you learned nothing about terrorism?”

We certainly have. We’ve learned that when one country invades and occupies another, their actions are considered legitimate; but when the occupants of that country fight back they are called terrorists.

“Hamas may have been elected. But the citizens had two lousy choices; Fatah a corrupt and weak faction or Hamas an even more corrupt but stronger faction.”

Just as the electorate of the US had two lousy options: Obama or McCain. That’s democracy for you.

“Both political parties want the total destruction of Israel, meaning the killing of all Jews. So in that vein they commit terrorism to achieve their goal.”

I think you’ll find that they want the dismantlement of Israel, and quite right, too. Most people in the world (with the exception of Americans, who have been inculcated by successive pro-Israe governments, a pro-Israel media and pro-Israel Hollywood into holding a rost but entirely false notion of Israel) would like to see Israel put out of business. But if some Palestinians would like to see Israel destroyed, who can blame them?

“First you need to know a little history of the region before you take on your bleeding heart agenda and preach about ‘proportional response’ and ‘butchery of citizens’”

Well, having lived there I can only speak from personal experience and first-hand observation.

The article you linked to is complete nonsense. To give just one example: ” From November 4th through December 27th, 2008, Hamas launched 730 mortars and rockets at Israel’s civilian population centers. On December 27th, 2008, Israel began it’s air offensive”. The misleading intention here is to suggest a causal relationship: Hamas fired missiles at Isrrael, and eventually Israel responded by attacking Gaza. Rubbish.

Apart from the fact that it completely disregards half a century of illegal occupation, oppression, massacres etc., the attacks on Gaza were planned in the summer of last year. They had nothing to do with Hamas’ ineffectual rocket attacks (which had killed no-one in Israel, by the way) which began AFTER Israel had broken the ceasefire.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

“I see that you applaud Obama’s rumored talks with Hamas as if unconditional dialogue with this scum will bring peace.”

On the contrary I have no time at all for Barack Obama, who has pledged continued US support for Israel.

“What would you give up in your life to stop being terrorized everyday by mortars and rockets fired indiscriminately at civilian targets? Or the possibility that a suicide bomber would detonate a bomb where you shop, eat or just go about your daily life?”

Are you referring to Palestinians or Israelis?
If I were an Israeli I would hopefully recognise that I was occupying a country that had been taken by force from its rightful owners, and I would go home to my country of origin.
If I were Palestinian, I would do everything in my power to defend my country and expel the invaders.

“Would you just sing kumbayah and let them continue? Or use a strong show of force to stop them forever?”

Are you talking about the Palestinians (the legitimate owners of this land) or the Israelis (the illegal occupiers)?

Since the early 1500’s the Irish Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other and in the 2oth century practicing outright terrorism by planting bombs all over London.

Have you learned nothing about terrorism?

You go on to say “And where are these terrorists you are talking about? Hamas are the democratically-elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Don’t you believe in democracy? Are you a communist or something?”

Hamas may have been elected. But the citizens had two lousy choices; Fatah a corrupt and weak faction or Hamas an even more corrupt but stronger faction.

Both political parties want the total destruction of Israel, meaning the killing of all Jews. So in that vein they commit terrorism to achieve their goal.

First you need to know a little history of the region before you take on your bleeding heart agenda and preach about “proportional response” and “butchery of citizens”

Try this for some education: http://angelinoview.com/2009/01/05/gaza-israel-palestinians-some-history-needed/

I see that you applaud Obama’s rumored talks with Hamas as if unconditional dialogue with this scum will bring peace.

What would you give up in your life to stop being terrorized everyday by mortars and rockets fired indiscriminately at civilian targets? Or the possibility that a suicide bomber would detonate a bomb where you shop, eat or just go about your daily life?

Would you just sing kumbayah and let them continue? Or use a strong show of force to stop them forever?

I’ll bet you just continue to watch the “Beeb” and shake your empty head in dismay.

I’m sorry, but this is absurd. If the president of the United States is reluctant to take action that would save hundreds of innocent lives for fear of being accused by a terrorist, apartheid state of being anti-Semitic, he shouldn’t have taken the job. He’s not at all in a “tough spot”. He’s the president-elect. He can say and do whatever he damned well likes. The people of Gaza, on the other hand, are what I would call “in a tough spot”.

“If a life is truly sacred, then one life alone is already too much? Perhaps then Israel should not take any action. If taking the life of a terrorist is allowed, then to kill 100,000 terrorists would be wrong?”

So the number of people killed on 9-11 doesn’t make it any worse tha, say, one person killed in a road accident? And being told that someone in your family has died would be the same to you as being told that your entire family had been killed? And if a gunman breaks into a bank and takes ten hostages the police should just burst in and shoot everyone, including the hostages, because that way they are guaranteed to kill the robber?
I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that you are talking drivel.
Hey, there are some bad guy mafioso in Italy. Why don’t we just drop a nuke on the country and solve the crime problem?
And where are these terrorists you are talking about? Hamas are the democratically-elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Don’t you believe in democracy? Are you a communist or something?
The only terrorists I see in Palestine are the Zionist thugs who are illegally occupying the country (don’t you believe in international law?) and ethnically cleansing it of its indigenous people.
Idiot.